Here's the first part of a Torch Talk with Jerry Lawler published in the PWTorch Newsletter ten years ago covering his reasons for leaving the WWF over his wife being fired.

Read and listen to hundreds of Torch Talk installments from our 23 year history of insider interviews: www.pwtorch.com/govip.

TORCH TALK with Jerry Lawler, part one

Jerry Lawler is one of the best known personalities in pro wrestling. He was one half of one of the most popular announcing duos in this industry's history. Then, seemingly out of nowhere, his wife was fired and he subsequently resigned. Since then there have been a lot of questions and a lot of speculation, but few answers regarding what really led to Lawler's departure - and what stands in the way of him returning. In part one of this new "Torch Talk" with Jerry Lawler, the longest and most in-depth interview he's done since leaving the WWF, he addresses several areas of controversy regarding his status with the WWF.

In future installments Lawler will give his thoughts on working with Jim Ross, how he thinks Paul Heyman has done in his place, his opinion of Michael Cole, his anlysis of the direction of the wrestling industry, his thoughts on the fall of WCW, his future on the Memphis wrestling scene, and much more. This interview was conducted June 22, 2001.

Wade Keller: When you first resigned from the WWF over the firing of your wife, you said you didn't really know what motivated them to fire her. What have you learned since then? Have you since learned of circumstances that might have led to the events playing out as they did?

Jerry Lawler: Well, I certainly found out, or feel I've learned a little more than we knew at first. Of course, at first, there was absolutely no reason whatsoever, other than the statement, the only statement that was made at the time, which was that someone on the creative team or staff felt that Stacy was difficult to work with, and if she were given any more air time she would become even more difficult to work with. That was the only thing we were told. I didn't buy that because I knew that she had not been difficult to work with. So, time went by and I did different interviews. I did some things on radio, the internet, and different things, and put out some theories that I had. The only official word, or sort of thoughts that I got from someone in the WWF, was apparently there was a problem about the fact that Stacy and I went to meet with Hugh Heffner. It was basically a total misunderstanding. Apparently, some of the people in the WWF were upset and felt that Stacy had gone on her own for that meeting when in actuality, the meeting had been set up for Stacy by people with the WWF. As a matter of fact, it was set up by the same people who had set up the meeting for Chyna and Hugh Heffner. Apparently, that part was just a miscommunication. I told them, "Gosh, if someone had just come to us and asked, ‘What are you doing meeting with Hugh Heffner and what's this all about?' we could have said that we didn't do it on our own and that it was set up by these people with the WWF." So that was a reason given and it wasn't that any one person was upset about it. They said the WWF and Playboy's situation is a political situation. There's a lot of hot looking women in the WWF and probably all of them would like to be in Playboy. Apparently, it created some hard feelings. I guess the feeling was that Stacy was trying to undermine the company and go in the back door to get into Playboy, but that just wasn't the case.

Keller: Did you find out that Vince found out about that situation on the day that he fired her? Or was that just one of the things that built up to that day?

Lawler: No, apparently they said that was one of the things. One of the other things they said was the fact that I had been pushing very hard for Stacy to get a spot on TV or to be figured more into the storylines. When they raised that issue, I said, "Well, I'm not denying that, but I've been in this business for 30 years and it's always been a business of self-promotion." Everybody in the WWF is constantly going to the writers or the creative staff with ideas for themselves. Almost every production meeting we have at the WWF ends with Vince McMahon saying: "Hey, anybody have any ideas? Anybody have any suggestions? We need your help, we need your input, we appreciate it, come to us." That being said, yes, I did push and try to give ideas for them to use Stacy more. But what I said was, "Even if that was the case, that shouldn't have put heat on Stacy." Not one time did she go to anybody and say, "Hey, here's a great idea for me." It was me talking to the people. So I said: "Why fire her over that? Why not just come to me and say, ‘Hey, look, we don't need any more ideas from you. We'll do something when we get ready to.'"

Keller: Did you find out what that last straw was where they went from intricately planning the storyline for her in one meeting and then, literally, just a few hours later, she was dismissed? Was there some piece of information that was the straw that broke the camel's back?

Lawler: No, that's the one thing that I never could find out. But apparently, a lot of heat, so to speak, was put on Stacy in order to basically put heat on me at the same time. I'm almost certain that that heat was coming from somebody down in the MCW (Memphis Championship Wrestling) promotion, that Terry Golden guy (MCW's owner), because he was upset that I had branched off from that and gone back with Randy Hales and tried to bring him back into the fold. I think a lot of bad things were said that weren't true that kept piling up and piling up.

Keller: I know that Kevin Kelly spent a lot of time down in that promotion. Was Kevin Kelly an advocate of yours or was he somebody who you think may have been one of the key people to help with that communication that hurt your standing?

Lawler: I think that Kevin Kelly was probably used by this MCW promotion as a pipeline. I don't think Kevin was really an advocate one way or the other. I just think that Kevin was this person's in. Kevin worked more closely with this person than he did me when he went down there because I wasn't working with MCW anymore. I think this person used Kevin as a pipeline for all of the misinformation that he could feed up to the WWF.

Keller: I know Stacy is your wife and you are going to stand by her, and everyone totally understands that, but you've probably asked around a lot and heard a lot of stories. Some of them probably weren't true, but were there some things you've heard that were true that maybe, due to her inexperience in the business or not knowing the code of conduct, she did something that created a misunderstanding or shed bad light on her? Were there a few things along the way when you were like, "Oh, I wish I was there to tell her not to do that or say that?"

Lawler: Probably so, but I can't really think of any one instance. Another thing that was said was that Stacy had some heat in the female locker room. That's one point that, in retrospect, I should have or wished I would have sat down and said... I probably should have had the, not father and son talk, but...

Keller: A mentor-protege talk?

Lawler: Yes, a mentor-protege type talk with her about the inner-workings of this business. It is very political and there are a lot of feelings and people's egos that you have to deal with. You have to go out of your way sometimes to avoid making other people mad at you. And especially when you're talking about the women's locker room. It's just human nature that there's going to be... I've heard stories from people about huge problems they used to have in the WCW female locker room. It seemed like there was a lot of jealousy among the girls. I have to say that in the WWF female locker room, that was never openly displayed. They all seemed to get along well, but obviously, behind the scenes, certain things are done or said and resentment was created. I would have said to Stacy, "You need to go out of your way to avoid any kind of comments or doing any sort of thing that might, later on, cause hard feelings with any of the other girls."

One of the things that was mentioned one time was that when Trish (Stratus) first came into the WWF, there was some resentment there from some of the girls. And this is just, once again, not only human nature, but somebody that's been in this business... If a so-called outsider gets brought in without quote/endquote, paying their dues, without coming up through the ranks basically, there is always resentment. It's funny, I remember Tazz making a statement just like that on the first "Tough Enough" show. That's a shoot, that's true. You can't help it. If you've gone out there, busted your butt, and driven up and down these roads for very little money and made these long shots and slept in your car and things like that to get where you are, but then see somebody come along and have everything handed to them on a silver platter, there's resentment. You can't help that. When Trish first came in, I know for a fact that there was some resentment. Things would happen like, if Trish came into the women's locker room and set her bag on a certain table and then went to catering, some of the other girls might come along and move her bag onto the floor and put their own bag where hers was. Just little things like that. I'm not saying Stacy was doing that, but I know that's one incident that happened (in the female locker room).

Had I thought of it at the time I would have told Stacy to do her best to get along with everybody, or at least appear that she got along with everybody. This is a business, it's so much like show-business. One of the most famous shows and one of the best of all-time, TV- and entertainment-wise, was "I Love Lucy." In reality, those four cast members despised one another. Nobody liked anybody. On camera the perception was that these were loving couples and best friends. That's the kind of situation that you have to have sometimes in the WWF workplace. You may not genuinely love this person, but you have to at least give the appearance that you do and not create any ill will or any hard feelings. It goes a long way towards making things smooth for everybody.

Keller: Do you think had Sable, Rena Mero, not put the WWF through what they went through with her that the situation with Stacy would have been different? Do you think the WWF overreacted and thought, Stacy is showing signs and we need to set an example?

Lawler: You mean showing signs of getting a big head? I'm just telling you my own personal opinion and I could be totally wrong, but I really don't think that part about getting the big head was the real reason. I think there were more things that were said, as I said, through the pipeline that put Stacy in a bad light and it didn't have anything to do with getting a big head. There were some behind the scenes type of bad stuff...

Keller: I know the food fight incident between Stacy and your son (Brian Christopher) was brought up. She gave off the image that she didn't want to have fun and other people did. I think that's one of those situations where people probably compare her to Sable. But those seem like two very different situations.

Lawler: Oh, absolutely. And believe me when I tell you that the food fight, in talking with everybody, was not fun for anybody. Not one person enjoyed being put in that situation, mainly because of the fact that they were going to get their clothes ruined and they had to stay for like an hour after everyone else was through, gone, and on their way to the hotel. That was the last thing that was shot. It was just a last minute, thrown together, entertainment piece that nobody wanted to be involved with. It was like, "Well, you're not doing anything on the show, so boom, you're going to be in the food fight." And everybody went, "Oh crap."

Stacy and Brian's relationship is one that is a special kind of thing. Brian has sort of an antagonistic personality. He has always ribbed, prodded, and poked at Stacy in little ways. He was sitting there all throughout the thing saying, "The first person I'm going to hit with this (food) is Stacy." Then, when it finally happened, Stacy and J.R. (Jim Ross) were sitting next to each other and they had already made plans to climb under the table once it started. J.R. got genuinely upset because his hat was ruined. It's like a $250 Stetson hat that was totally ruined. Nobody wants that to happen. But they were going to try to get under the table as soon as it started and avoid most of the fray. Well, beforehand, even Stacy went to Stephanie (McMahon) and said: "Can I ask you just one favor? Would you just ask Brian not to hit me with that stuff right there?" Anyway, I think that upset Brian because he was told on. So then of course when it started, Stephanie wasn't in there, so Brian ran right over as quick as he could and not only did he throw the thing, he dented the bowl that it was in and wound up hitting her and it literally knocked her down. It was just one of those crazy ol' things. Brian thought he was playing a rib and Stacy got upset about it, I mean really mad. That is a personality conflict. That has nothing to do with business. It didn't go anywhere outside of that little situation and was soothed over later on that evening.

Keller: It was not a situation where everyone involved didn't understand that everyone was upset. It wasn't like everyone was having a good time except for one prima-donna?

Lawler: No, no, believe me, I can assure you that nobody had a good time doing that.

Keller: I know there was a situation where, I think they were digital still-shots that Stacy was showing of her and Chyna together. Was that something that was blown out of proportion, or do you think that that situation came back to haunt Stacy?

Lawler: Oh, no, I think that was totally blown out of proportion. Those shots had been on our website for almost a year before anything was said about them. Those shots were some of the very first little Kat-cam pictures from when we just got the digital camera and were taking shots backstage. I spoke to somebody about that. It really shows, if you look at those pictures, what really good friends Stacy and Chyna were at one time. I took those pictures and they loved mugging for the cameras and were playing and playful. When you're backstage, it's hard to have a good time because it's a high-pressure business. Everybody thinks that it's such an easy living and everything, but it's not. Everybody is pretty much strictly business. There are long hours with all of these people. But genuinely, Stacy and Chyna enjoyed being together and they had a good time. You can look at those pictures and see how playful they were. There were pictures of Stacy picking up Chyna and pictures of Chyna picking Stacy up, and their arms were around each other. Literally, there were two shots of them acting like or pretending like they were going to kiss. There was nothing sexual or provocative or anything like that, it was just two girlfriends mugging for the camera. There are pictures of them with the Hardys, Lita, and all sorts of stuff. Those were out and on there (Lawler's website) for a year and Chyna saw every one of them. As soon as I took the picture, I let them see them right there on the digital camera and they loved them. That was just something that was blown way out of proportion. I don't think there was ever any problem with that.

Keller: And there was never a problem with Chyna in the way that Stacy portrayed the photos or showed them around or talked about them? Was there ever a falling out?

Lawler: Stacy never showed them around anywhere. They were on the website.

Keller: Okay, I got the impression at some point that Chyna had a falling out of some type with Stacy, or that Chyna and her friends had a falling out with Stacy and her circle, and that it led to some problems. I guess that leads to the question of whether you think Joanie Lauer (Chyna) had anything to do with the Stacy situation, politically?

Lawler: (Sighs) I hope not. I don't have one shred of evidence or proof, and nobody has ever said anything to me that would indicate that. I just know that at one time, and once again this is my own personal feeling, but they were very, very close. I think that two things contributed to the fact that they more or less grew apart. I think one thing was, and it sort of happened simultaneously, Stacy and I got engaged to be married at about the same time that Joanie and Triple H more or less broke up. At one time they were a couple, we were a couple, they were building a house together, we had the house here in Memphis. They had come and stayed at our house when we worked Memphis. Stacy had stayed there with them. And unfortunately, at about the same period of time, Stacy and I got engaged, while Joanie and Triple H broke up. And I think that all of a sudden, they didn't have as much in common. But combine that with the fact that it was also at the same time that Joanie's career basically started to skyrocket, and she was in demand so much more than she had been before. There was just less time for Stacy and Joanie to spend together. She was gone doing Playboy, writing the book, and doing all of these things that were demanding all of her time. I think that's more or less when they grew apart, so to speak.

Keller: I know that Chyna is having some negotiations with the WWF. If things fall apart for her and they agree to part ways, there's nothing in your mind that indicates that that would grease the skids for Stacy to come back?

Lawler: No.

Keller: Do you think there is a double standard to an extent when it comes to how women are expected to conduct themselves, not just when they're clocked in but also when they are clocked out, versus how the men are expected to conduct themselves?

Lawler: Absolutely, without a doubt.

Keller: In what ways?

Lawler: Oh, gosh, I would think that... I don't think punishment is the right word. But I would think that anything that is done by a female that would be considered to be inappropriate or something that the company doesn't like would be dealt with more severely than it would if it were a male star. It's a male driven business and I think they think that the male wrestlers are more important than the females on the roster.

Keller: Is there an element of male chauvinism, also? I'm not talking about Stacy, I'm talking about women in general. Do you think men are applauded for doing things in their nightlife that women are condemned for?

Lawler: Well, to me, that's not evident. It was never evident in the World Wrestling Federation, but let's face it, it's that way in society. That's just the society we live in. That's the way the world is. If a guy goes out and sleeps with five different women in a week, everybody says, "Whoa boy, what a guy. This guy is really hot" (laughs). If a girl does the same thing, she's a slut, she's a sleaze. So that's just the way of the world. But that's not something that is talked about or even implied (in the WWF). To be honest with you, and a lot of people may be disappointed with this, but the WWF is a very non-sexual business, especially backstage. There is never any mention of anything like that. It's not what you would think.

Keller: I know that you had a meeting with the WWF a couple of weeks back...

Lawler: I did?

Keller: Did you go to Stamford (Connecticut)?

Lawler: I cannot confirm or deny that (laughs).

Keller: Oh, really? I thought you went on record saying that it was a waste of everyone's time or something like that.

Lawler: Oh, I did? Okay, maybe I did (laughs). Sometimes I can't remember what I've said in interviews.

Keller: Can you talk about that?

Lawler: I guess I can. I'll just say that I had some discussions with two WWF officials.

Keller: Did you get a sense that there was progress made, or did you sense that it was a deader issue than it ever was based on what came out of the discussions?

Lawler: No, I didn't get a sense that it was deader than it ever was, but I didn't get a sense of any progress either. That's why I may have said in some circles - that we probably could have accomplished what we accomplished over the telephone. I just got a sense that their position hadn't changed. Well, I guess maybe some progress was made, or at least hopefully was. That's where I found out some of the other reasons aside from the creative team having problems with Stacy. That's where I found out the deal about going to meet with Hugh Heffner. And I also got to explain how that came about. So, in a sense, maybe some progress was made.

Keller: So you were able to give the WWF information that they might not have had that may have helped them say, "Wait a second, there was some miscommunication internally about this"?

Lawler: Absolutely.

Keller: Are there any circumstance in which you could see yourself going back to the World Wrestling Federation? Let's say they offered you double what you were making before and apologized to you for the way things happened, but Stacy still wasn't offered a job. Is there a scenario where you would go back without Stacy getting a job?

Lawler: None.

Keller: That's just non-negotiable.

Lawler: Right.

Keller: Do you think that given the strong stance the WWF took, that they have a way to save face while giving Stacy her job back? Clearly it's not just about who's right and wrong in situations like this, it's about who can save face. In any business relationship, the main factor is often whether everyone looks good in the end. Is there a way for the WWF to re-hire Stacy and save face for the way they handled it?

Lawler: Oh, I would think so, absolutely. It would be as simple as saying, "Hey, you know what, we all made mistakes. We all didn't communicate as we should have and consequently, we made a decision based on the information we had and we didn't have all of the right information... We've all decided to say, ‘Hey, let's put things back like they were and move forward from that point on and try to forget this happened, and from this point on, go forward with the understanding that we will all communicate better, and hopefully nothing like this will take place in the future.'"

Keller: I don't know that you had anything to do with instigating it, but I know that there was somebody, I don't know if it was a friend of yours or just an advocate of yours, in WCW who pitched you to the boss at the time, Brad Siegel. I think Brad was so out of touch that he didn't even know who you were. I think word got back to the WWF that might have given them the impression that you were trying to play them off of a WCW offer...

Lawler: Let me just say this. I know what you are talking about. Believe me, Brad Siegel was not so out of touch that he did not know who I was. That was his defense mechanism. They had already been sued for negotiating with people that were still under WWF contract, and suddenly he felt, "Uh oh, here comes another one of those deals, so I'm going to deny it by saying that I don't even know who that guy is and I haven't talked to anybody." But believe me, he had talked to somebody and the word had gotten to me. Do I feel that the WWF... the term we use is holding them up or something like that?...

Keller: Yeah, playing both sides against each other or trying to leverage a better deal. If they fired Stacy for a number of reasons, was one of them to get back at you for not being one hundred percent loyal?

Lawler: Oh no, I don't think so. And I have always been one hundred percent loyal. All I did was, when I met with Vince and Kevin Dunn about the conversation that the WCW people were having with me, I felt in my mind that I was being one hundred percent loyal. I was just telling them what was taking place. I didn't want the word to get back to Vince that WCW was talking to me and he didn't know about it. I went to Vince and Kevin Dunn and said, "Look, here's who called me and this is what they said." It was a business talk between Vince and I and he said, "Hey, we understand that they may have said those things and they may be offering that kind of money, and to be honest with you, we couldn't match that kind of money." He cited the time that Bobby Heenan was there. He said, "They did the same thing with Bobby Heenan, and Bobby came to me and said, "Vince, here's what they are offering. What should I do?'" Vince said, "I told Bobby that he should take it. That's probably the best thing for you at this point and time because I can't pay you that much money." Vince explained to me: "I didn't stand in (Heenan's) way, but King, I tell you this, now that we're a publicly traded company, I have to be aware of not only what is best for the company, but what is best for our stockholders. I, quite frankly in good conscious, could not tell you, ‘Okay, we're just going to let you out of your contract so that you can go down there and make more money.' That's just the way out situation is now." That was it, no more was said about it. I never said, "Hey, I want to go there." I never said that I wanted more money or I would go there. That was never the case. It was just a meeting to explain what was happening to them.

Keller: Once and for all, because I think there is even confusion on your end as far as dates and stuff, how much time did you have left on your contract or were you working without one, and when was the last one you signed? Do you know that off the top of your head?

Lawler: I'm the world's worst on those types of deals, business-wise, and stuff like that (laughs). In reality, I had been sent a new contract by the WWF and I had not signed it or returned it.

Keller: Were you working without a contract, or was that to renew in the future?

Lawler: It was probably more or less an amendment to the contract that I was working under. Well, it wasn't so much an amendment as it was a totally new contract.

Keller: But you were not a free agent at the time that you resigned. If WCW were still in business and had an offer for you, you couldn't have walked away from the WWF because you were technically still under contract to them?

Lawler: Right.


Keller: But you had a renewal that you guys had agreed to a long time ago, or just recently?

Lawler: I had a renewal that I had agreed to recently, but I just hadn't signed it.

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