Ten years ago this week in the PWTorch Newsletter, I recapped and analyzed Vince McMahon's off-the-wall behavior during his interview with Bob Costas on his HBO "On the Record" program discussing primarily the early faltering of the new XFL league.

McMahon at the time said he was pretty sure the XFL would continue without NBC's support. It didn't last long at all, though.

The interview included McMahon's go-to strategy of blaming the media, while Costas came off as precious, pretentious, and patronizing. It wasn't a good segment for either of them, although McMahon looked worse. He played the "elitist" card, which was part true and part fantasy. Of course people look down on him and always will for making his fortune in the pro wrestling industry which he has spent decades unsuccessfully trying to redefine as "sports entertainment." However, McMahon looks delusional when he fails to see that his approach - including in this interview, but also the marketing of the XFL - just confirms people's predispositions about him.

The questions about fixing games was insulting. The conspiracy that would need to take place among players, coaches, and referees to actually fix games - the speed with which that would be exposed - would destroy the league. The real thing that destroyed the league was bone-headed decision to relax defensive rules. In the spirit of wanting to market themselves as more hard-hitting and less stodgy, the relaxed defensive rules cripples the ability of offenses to execute big plays and thus led to low scoring boring games. The bottom line was Vince McMahon and his circle didn't understand football enough to know that the NFL rules protecting quarterbacks and receivers isn't wimpy or overburdening, it's what frees up great athletes to make great plays and score.

Whether the XFL ever had a chance even if McMahon did everything right will never be known. But McMahon made plenty of mistakes to doom the uphill battle of trying to pass of any minor league sport as must-see TV. His timing wasn't great, either. Starting the XFL this year would have better with the lockout threatening NFL's next season.

Here's the full article. As always you can read these flashbacks first and all other articles in our back issues of Pro Wrestling Torch by becoming a PWTorch VIP member: www.pwtorch.com/govip

PWTORCH IN-DEPTH by Wade Keller
ORIGINALLY PUBLISHED: March 24, 2001
ISSUE #646

Vince McMahon was a guest for a half hour on Bob Costas's HBO live show, "On the Record" on Mar. 14. A brief montage aired of XFL footage, and then Costas sat across from McMahon in a casual setting.

Costas began by telling McMahon that the XFL is rivaling the lowest ratings of all time for any show on network TV. He asked McMahon if he can guarantee the XFL will be around next year. McMahon said he can't guarantee Costas that he will be alive to leave the studio, but he said he is pretty sure that the league will continue in "one form or another." He said he thinks it will be on NBC. McMahon said it takes time to build a brand. Costas said NBC can't sacrifice Saturday nights for the sake of the XFL trying to find an audience.

McMahon said the caliber of play at the start was terrible, but it has increased drastically. Costas asked how it could possibly improve so much in just a few weeks. McMahon said there was no preseason and so the play was pretty rough the first week. McMahon said he hears the NFL is thinking of "stealing" some of their production ideas. McMahon then touted a 27,000 live attendance average and that the games are family-friendly as far as ticket prices go. McMahon said it is unrealistic for anyone who wants to partner with them to think they could build a brand in one year.

Costas asked McMahon about the argument that it's "not WWF enough for the WWF crowd and not good enough football for the football crowd." McMahon said the WWF fan likes the WWF product in its proper form, and added, "All I'm asking is take another look at (the XFL) now and judge it on its merit or lack of merit when it comes to football."

Costas's next statement was said in a way that it appeared he was trying to be "delicate" with his words, but instead it came across somewhat condescending based on his facial expression and the cadence of his words: "You came into this with plenty of power, expertise in a certain area of television and entertainment, you came to it with celebrity, but in most people's minds not with prestige because of the type of programming you are affiliated with. On the other hand, NBC has prestige. They risk not just dollars, they risk prestige. Do you think they're feeling the heat on that front?"

McMahon said the media is giving NBC heat, but asked Costas: "I don't think the XFL has hurt NBC in terms of prestige. How? Because they've been associated with me individually or the smear, if you would, of World Wrestling Federation Entertainment? Is that it?" Costas responded: "I think there's a general perception that while the XFL doesn't go anywhere near where the WWF goes, that it's a low-rent form of television."

McMahon (who later complained about Costas interrupting him, for the record was the first to interrupt on the show, speaking over the final two words of Costas's last sentence) asked, "Have you seen any of the games? Tell me what is low-rent?" McMahon also began to lean in toward Costas at this point as he talked. Costas said, "Not so much the games, but the pregame show, especially week one, was one of the most mindless (McMahon interrupted again at this point, but Costas finished his thought) things I've ever seen." McMahon said, "We don't have a pregame show." Costas said, "Anymore?" McMahon said they never have. Costas seemed a bit flustered for the first time as McMahon said that the pregame shows in various markets were produced by the local TV stations, clarifying that the XFL had nothing to do with them.

Costas said it left the impression in many quarters that it was a low-rent deal. Costas said some people's reaction was "not just that we don't like this, but we're offended by this association." McMahon said, "If that's the case they have to do what they have to do like you do Bob."

McMahon said they are going to spend some money that they otherwise weren't planning to and ask the media to cover it for the event that it is and not the perception "that you as an elitist in my point of view and others have. It's not low-rent football. It's kids out there playing their hearts out if you watch them." Costas said nobody dismissed the players and coaches trying to make their livings in the league. "There is an association that in the minds of some is a plus; that's what brought a lot of that ten ratings the first week... There are others who are put off by that. You bring both positives and negatives." McMahon defensively asked what have they done to offend people, adding, "If nothing else we are brutally honest about who we are and what we are presenting. But there is not one thing we have brought to the games that I know of that we have presented that is salacious in any way."

Costas asked if the ratings don't improve if they would push more limits. McMahon said they tried it with the cheerleaders skit. "We were winking at our audience who understand what we are doing. It's the quality of the football that will bring viewers back."

Costas asked if he would fix the games if it guaranteed improved ratings. McMahon said, "What a ridiculous statement." Costas said, "It's not a statement, it's a question." McMahon said, "It's either football or it's not." He then explained that long ago he admitted wrestling is entertainment. "How could you possibly script a football game?" McMahon asked. McMahon said they have made corrections in production mistakes and announcing mistakes. Costas asked if wrestling announcers are the best choice. McMahon said no.

Costas said: "I know within the business, this is not from people who wish you ill, but..." McMahon interrupted and asked who would wish him ill will. Costas said many people do. McMahon interrupted Costas again and asked, "Why would they wish me ill? Give me one reason why." Costas responded: "This show is only an hour long. There are many people who consider what you've done with the WWF while successful to also be objectionable."

Costas asked what the impact would be on him if the XFL turns out to be a grand scale failure. McMahon said: "I get knocked on my kiester, dust myself off, and get back up. What do you mean what impact does it have on me? I do the best I can every single day. I'm a fighter. I enjoy fighting, by the way. I like to fight. I have tremendous confidence that this is going to be a big success, but no one can expect it to be in year one."

McMahon said he doesn't know what he's done to insult anyone in the sporting world. He suggested if someone in the sporting world doesn't like what he does in the entertainment world, then change the channel. "I'm a different character than I play on World Wrestling Federation Entertainment." He said the media doesn't owe a damn thing to him, but they owe it to the players of the XFL to reevaluate the game today.

A clip then aired of the last two angles with McMahon and Trish Stratus on the last two editions of Raw. Costas responded to the clips. "What's the possible justification for what we just saw?" McMahon defended himself and said, "It's part of the storyline. What you see is a soap opera, okay?" McMahon then said that the clip was "out of character." (He presumably meant to say "out of context.") Costas said it wasn't atypical since there is also crotch grabbing, pointing, and "suck it" chants. "You know what, Bob, you haven't watched," McMahon interrupted. Costas attempted to complete his sentence anyway, at which point McMahon said, "Wait a second. Don't make me raise my voice here. I don't want to do that with you even though you're doing it with me. You want to play that way, boy I can play, okay? When you get into a situation where you don't know what you're talking about cause you don't watch... You're no different than Phil Mushnick, who doesn't watch, either..." Costas interrupted, "These things don't happen?"

McMahon leaned forward. "You want to let me finish here for a second, pal?" Costas said, "I'm just asking the question." McMahon leaned forward, got intense, pointed his finger at Costas's face, and said, "Then go shut your mouth and let me answer your question and I'll be happy to answer it!" Costas calmly said, "Go ahead and answer." McMahon said, "Good. So you've got a situation where you don't watch. We haven't done crotch grabbing in over a year. We haven't done the suck it chant in about a year and a half. It was part of the show then." McMahon then pointed out that the show preceding Costas is "The Sopranos." He said like that the WWF is a soap opera. Costas began speaking about how the WWF is geared toward youngsters. McMahon talked right over Costas and said the WWF is geared toward a wide demographic. Costas said TNN is basic cable; HBO is premium cable.

McMahon interrupted Costas mid-sentence again and said, "If people enjoy it, then why are you on your high chair (looking down at) people who enjoy it?" McMahon then said research would indicate that Smackdown brings families together more than any other entertainment program. He said they do accept standards on broadcast based on the daypart.

Costas interrupted McMahon in mid-sentence and said the fact that there is an audience for the WWF doesn't justify it. He said, "There's an audience for pornography. There were audiences for (unclear)..." McMahon interrupted, "We're talking about a huge audience!"

Costas said he was a wrestling fan much of his life. He said he enjoyed the tongue-in-cheek aspects of wrestling's soap opera. He said it could still be that without the vulgarity, without the mean spiritedness..." McMahon interrupted and said, "Don't tell me what it can still be. Listen, pal, you get paid for doing your little show and bringing people out here and being your highfalutin guy. I'm down with that, that's cool, because I love freedom of expression. This is great, I love this. But at the same time you can't tell me how to run my business and what people want to see. Because if people wanted to see the wrestling you are talking about, that's what we would do." Costas characterized it as "regressing." McMahon said it's Costas's prerogative to not watch, but millions choose to watch it.

Costas said, "Do you think this type of programming contributes..." McMahon began laughing and saying "yes." Costas said he didn't even know what he was going to ask. McMahon said he did. Costas finished: "...to the instability and the coarseness that's generally out there in the culture now? Do you pump some of that into the water supply?" McMahon paused and said, "Maybe so. I don't know. I don't know what Sopranos does, or Sex in the City, or soap operas on daytime TV."

Costas brought up the Lionel Tate murder. "Recently in Florida a 14 year old boy had been on trial for killing a 6 year old girl for using wrestling moves which he saw on television. I don't know if he saw them on WWF, but he could have." Costas said there is no research to link wrestling to such violence, but asked if it gives him pause. McMahon responded: "You're supposed to come here and know your stuff. If you're going to jump all over me, you should have watched some of this and you should really know your facts." Costas said in response to the accusation, "I've seen some of it." McMahon shifted forward to the edge of his chair and got a few inches away from Costas's face and said, "Will you let me finish? That's the last time I'm gonna say this." Costas laughed. McMahon mocked Costas's smile and laughter. Costas said, "This is amusing me."

McMahon explained that Costas should know what he's talking about. Costas said, "Is the child not on trial in Florida?" McMahon corrected him and said, "The child's been convicted. He's a murderer. If you had done the slightest bit of research, you would have known what the poll of the jury was. This notion that the child was practicing wrestling maneuvers was a complete hoax." Costas interjected, "They rejected that as a defense." McMahon said, "Would you let me finish? Would you please let me finish?!" Costas said with a smile on his face, "Just because I inject something doesn't mean you're not going to have time to respond. You'll have plenty of time to respond. Please continue."

McMahon took a sip from his drink and continued: "So the jury said not only did we reject it, it had nothing to do with the murder of this child. The attorney didn't even raise that defense for quite some time after the incident." He said the judge also said the wrestling theory was an absurd hoax. "The six year old died not because there was horseplay, but because of the brutality of the 12 year old at the time. You can't fool a jury or a judge. They said it was an absurd notion and should not have been raised." He again told Costas to get the facts.

Costas asked if any of the violence in wrestling contributes in some way to a lack of civility and perhaps violence in society. McMahon said he would bet their definitions of civility differ from each other. McMahon again said there is no portrayal of murder, guns, knives, and rape, but they do have fun with folding chairs and tables. Costas asked about the degradation of women. McMahon said: "Generally speaking, if you stay with our storylines long enough rather than taking one segment to smear me with one thing - and thanks very much for that, that was a real class move on your part - so when you take that and you do that..."

Costas couldn't resist interrupting at this point. He said, "If I were to resort to your type of responses, it's interesting to see you lecturing somebody about class." McMahon said, "I don't have class?" Costas: "I'm saying you're a strange one to be delivering that lecture." McMahon: "So now you're interrupting me again, right?" Costas: "Proceed." McMahon: "You know what, this is the Bob Costas interrupt program." Costas: "That's a characterization that I think few would share, but it might work for you in this instance." Costas said he interrupts to keep McMahon on point.

McMahon explained that WWF women are very strong and in time, the Vince McMahon character "will get his." He said the women are strong-willed and at the end of the day get what they want and then some, "but you have to stay tuned, Bob."

Costas said he had to conclude with one more question. McMahon said he was having fun. Costas said Bob Knight was waiting and deserved his time. "Owen Hart died during a show in Kansas City while executing a maneuver. Have you pulled back the level of risk in some of these maneuvers?" McMahon said, "As far as anything aerial, absolutely. We would never attempt to do anything like we were doing with Owen again because I have deference to Owen if for no other reason. The risk factor increases with the athletes as it does with any sport."

Costas thanked McMahon. McMahon thanked Costas. They ended with a handshake.

ANALYSIS... by W.K.

Vince McMahon is not used to being interrupted. That was the most prominent thought in my mind after watching the interview for the first time. Interruptions are a normal part of conversation for most people. It's not polite to interrupt, but it's often prudent, especially as a talk show host wanting to "keep someone on point." Costas was justified in most of his interruptions. McMahon obviously wouldn't agree.

McMahon, in his world, is feared by most people he interacts with. People don't interrupt people whom they fear. In fact, I'd bet most of the people who have interrupted McMahon have done so during heated, antagonistic discussions. Otherwise, McMahon has made it clear interruptions are not acceptable when dealing with him at the workplace (and perhaps among family, too).

McMahon, though, was the first to interrupt Costas. They interrupted each other often. Who interrupted more often? Doesn't matter. They both did, and McMahon came across as a baby by reacting the way he did.

McMahon also came across as being a strange, almost scary individual. His attempts to physically intimidate Costas were entirely inappropriate. Leaning forward, raising his voice, pointing his finger, and suggestively telling him how much he likes to fight were all embarrassing moments for McMahon.

McMahon could have won that debate with Costas on the facts. Costas was unprepared and had predetermined notions that would have allowed McMahon to easily paint him an elitist. Instead, McMahon let his emotions get the best of him. Rather than come out looking confident and strong by making sound points in a rational manner, McMahon lowered the stakes.

After the interview was over, because of how McMahon conducted himself, his fans were applauding his aggressive defense of himself, his company, and his fans; others were astounded that McMahon would carry himself in such a manner and believed Costas handled himself with class.

Costas was wrong about the Tate murder. Tate threw a little girl around and pounded her until she died. There was no evidence that he innocently, and naively, suplexed her through a table. The judge and jury dismissed that argument. For Costas and the rest of the mainstream media to continue to cling to that catchy, yet irrelevant, "wrestling death" tag line is irresponsible and ill-informed. That Costas mistakenly said the trial was ongoing was a glaring error.

The Trish Stratus incident was taken out of context. That said, in context, many wrestling fans thought it went too far. It wasn't clear, though, that Costas understands that as soon as McMahon and Trish walk backstage, they smile and congratulate each other on their performances. If Costas was upset with the portrayal, knowing full-well it was purely acting, that's one thing. But I'm not so sure that line is clear for Costas.

I have defended that angle (although I would have advised against it for p.r. reasons) as being a set-up for Trish to get her revenge down the line. It was intense and degrading, but the Mr. McMahon character is evil. If he treated women with respect, if he didn't get off on berating women and objectifying them, he wouldn't be as effective a heel.

Is such a skit appropriate for a product that historically has been marketed toward kids and still attracts a lot more children than the HBO shows and soap opera shows that McMahon refers to? No, it's not, yet how many years must pass before the WWF won't be regarded by anyone as show appropriate for young children? By parents and the media?

Costas figuratively strutted into that interview with the confidence of any team that opposes the Chicago Bulls these days. He thought it would be a slam dunk cake walk. Costas's holier than thou attitude is all the more annoying because his presumptions are so stereotyped and cliched. He was unsuccessfully holding back his smirk, as if he couldn't wait to celebrate with his baseball friends afterward. McMahon sensed that and reacted poorly.

Both men had a chance to show up the other, and both failed - McMahon more than Costas.

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