Torch Talk with Jeff Hardy, pt. 5
Originally Published: October 29, 2005
Torch Newsletter #885

The following is the fifth installment of a two-and-a-half hour "Torch Talk" interview with Jeff Hardy conducted Sept. 15. In this installment, Jeff talks about his suspicions regarding his brother Matt's version of what happened in the Lita-Edge controversy.

Wade Keller: Regarding your brother Matt's version of what happened with the Lita-Edge situation, was there anything that stood out where you really doubted him?

Jeff Hardy: I remember there were times I'd be down at Matt's, and more than anything I always think back to this one time and knowing how controlling Matt can be just in the tag team situation and being the leader of the Hardy Boyz and talking about my matches, knowing how he is, man, like, there was a time when Amy was trying to play something in his computer, like a music disc or something, and he just got all out of shape. I guess he gets this from my dad, too. He was, like, "What the f---!" He got all over her. I was, like, oh my God. That was so uncalled for, it was ridiculous how mad he got. Then I think back and wonder how many times have things like that happened since the time they had moved in together. So that makes me think, man, there might be more to the story as far as Matt looking like the one who was hurt the most. Amy could possibly have been hurt quite a few times in the fact that she had moved in with Matt and was living with Matt; his house, his rules, you know that whole thing.

Keller: The amazing part about Matt coming back to WWE is that Amy and Adam have said enough things in a short period of time that a lot of people have thought that gosh, maybe there are two sides to it and it isn't as cut and dried as we thought it was. Some of the things, especially that Amy has said, sound reasonable. Not that she's done anything to trash him; she has outright said, hey, if someone you're with falls in love with somebody else, there's usually a reason, and things probably weren't really good in the original relationship. She said it, like, get over it, people break up all the time. Now, granted, that's somewhat scripted and part of the storyline, but there's an element of it that sounds as if there was another side to the story. Maybe people are now respecting Amy for not saying anything about it and trying to keep it private.

Hardy: And one of the weirdest things, man, is Edge just being married for such a short period of time before this all started. I just remember I was at his wedding, man, and me and my girlfriend - my wife, as I've been calling her as of late - we were sitting there and Matt and Amy were right against each other and looked fine and watching these two get married. Now I think back then and wonder what was going on in Amy's mind at that point. That was so weird because Adam never came across as that type of a guy that was just a damn sex machine or sex addict looking to screw any girl he could. He never came across to me as that type of guy. Once again, that just makes me want to call and apologize that much more now after all of this time has gone by and there are so many strange questions. I totally do believe that it was something. I don't know at what point - I don't think Adam and Lita and Matt actually communicated secretly themselves, but I think they took a real life situation and turned it into a storyline or angle.

Keller: It's hard to separate reality from storyline, but she made some points that maybe made you think there was another side. The question I have is Adam's role in this. As Matt's brother and a good friend of Amy's, have you heard or come up with anything in your mind that would justify Adam's role, other than falling in love and not having control over it? Is there any excuse for what Adam did considering he was friends with Matt?

Hardy: There was one thing. I have no idea what went on in Adam and his wife's life. That night of the wedding I didn't even speak to Adam. I had seen him really briefly before they went out into the big room, whatever it's called after a wedding. I just talked to him briefly from a distance, like, hey man. I don't know what was going on in their lives. There's always the possibility that something crazy could have happened between them that had been driving him away even in that short period of time. It sucks to think about that considering you just committed to marry, but I don't know. I should have taken the time to get the other side. Something could have happened early in their marriage, a few weeks in. I do think back to the TLCs about this, too, when we were discussing matches. It does always seem that there was a flirty relationship there between Amy and Adam. Naturally, when you look at the couples, Amy and Matt don't look like they'd like the same music; they don't look that compatible. With wrestling, they're super compatible, but you see Adam and Amy, they look more like the rock 'n' roll type who might work better. You just don't know. I haven't taken the time to even ask Amy. I maybe have texted her a few times, but that's it. After that Byte This that I saw, that was the bitchiest I had seen her come across. It was to the point, then, that I don't know what to say as far as whether anything justifies it. There possibly could be something that justifies Adam doing what he did.

Keller: You haven't heard an example of anything or come up with anything, though. Forget that he's married, and just consider that he was clearly pursuing Amy to a degree based on the phone messages you heard without letting Matt, as a guy friend, know what he was doing. It's not the worst thing someone has ever done, but it's certainly breaking accepted rules.

Hardy: It does seem like Amy would have been a person who would more likely before anything happened sexually or whatever, when the feelings or emotions started developing between her and Adam, and she did feel she couldn't resist and wanted to follow through with sexual things happenings, I would have thought she'd have been the type to straight up tell Matt and be honest with him before anything happened. Say, "Hey, I'm not that happy." I think friendship is way more important than sex in the long run, but then again, you've got the sex, and it's pretty important in your younger years. I don't know what was going on between them, but if she would have just come out and told them and ended it there, I think everything would have been fine.

Keller: It was a pretty big revelation when during the Ultimate Insiders DVD interview, Matt said he and Edge and Amy had all gotten together at a hotel shortly after he found out about the situation and they all talked about it. Was that the first you had heard of it, or did you hear about it at the time?

Hardy: No, that was the first I had heard of it.

Keller: What was your reaction when you heard that? Did it make you suspicious at all? Did you wonder why Matt didn't tell you that?

Hardy: I was already to the point where I felt that Matt was telling me one thing this day and another thing the next. So I was just like, whatever. He's confused me a lot when it comes to Amy and his relationship with her. He's thrown me several swerves to where I was to the point then of thinking, "Okay, okay, whatever you say." I had strained my brain so many times, especially looking at it if it was all a work. I thought this might be the work of the century. I'm thinking of all of this master planning that might have been done. But it got to the point where I would have a headache. It got to the point where I said, God, I just can't be worrying about this sh--.

Keller: Do you have the type of relationship with Matt where you can tell if he's lying to you or you can tell for sure if he's telling you the truth just based on the way he looks at you and talks? Or is it the type of thing where you honestly had suspicions from the start? This story got bigger than anybody imagined and Matt fueled it, so it's kind of natural, even if you trust someone, to start thinking, man, what is reality anymore?

Hardy: Right. Yeah, yeah. Amy, actually, titled him a spin doctor in one of those Byte This interviews. Actually, you know what, he might be a spin doctor. He is very good at putting his spin on things and making them sound good. I think I can read him just based on how his lips are moving or there are little things with his eyes that I can read. He will be so hard-headed, it's so tough and he's got such a tough force-field up at all times in the way he talks. He's strong and he's tough. It's hard for him to let up that more emotional side.

Keller: Is he more like his dad or are you more like your dad? Or do you each have half of his traits?

Hardy: No, he's more like my dad for sure. My dad is the same way. My dad has never been the type of person to come out and say, "I love you" unless it's in a joking tone. He's just like my dad when it comes to that because, man, me and the whole obsession - not obsession, but curiosity and interest in the afterlife and stuff - Matt's never got into it. We've talked about stuff like that, the end of the world, and all that sh--, and Matt's nowhere near into it like I am. There's only one time that I actually remember him talking about our mom. It's in that Leap of Faith video when he's pointing at one of our family portraits. He said, "That's my dad, that's my mom." That's one of the only times I can remember him actually mentioning her without me bringing it up in conversation. Man, my mom and I are totally on the same level. She's on my spiritual level. I have just such a strong connection. With my beliefs and everything, as I said on the Ultimate Insiders DVD, she's like God to me. With Matt, I've never been able to express that or actually get into detail with it. He doesn't seem open to it.

Keller: Let me ask this one more time just to be clear. Do you think Adam Copeland and Amy Dumas really had an affair of sorts that Matt found out about and got angry about, and you were one of the people he told right away, and he got upset, and it devastated him, and all along Amy and Adam were on the verge of a relationship, but the publicity and reality set in and maybe they weren't meant for each other - and whatever it was, and then Matt went public and they didn't want to talk about it, and eventually when Matt re-signed with WWE, Adam and Amy were, like, "Okay, I guess we're gonna have to go on TV with this," but never along the line was there a plot or a conspiracy with those three to perpetuate something at any point. Do you believe that's how it actually played out? Or do you think with all that you've said that you're actually suspicious that this could have been a work from the beginning or it might have turned into a work somewhere along the line? Where, after talking it out like this the last several minutes, where do you fall on it?

Hardy: I totally think the break-up went down for real and it was just something they turned into a work. I don't think it was plotted from the very beginning, but that was when I spent the most time actually looking at it as far as the possibility. Now I think for sure it was something they took which was a real situation and totally turned it into a storyline.

Keller: When is the moment that it went from real to storyline? When Matt signed with WWE? Two weeks before that? Or a couple months before that?

Hardy: Oh, no. I don't know when it was that they played a video package, but do you remember the wedding when they played Matt's intro video. Man, somewhere right before then. He would never tell me. WWE doesn't seem like the type of company that would do something like that unless they were committed to some type of follow up.

Keller: But you don't think at the time we recorded the DVD or a month earlier that he was in work mode at all?

Hardy: I don't think so. I think at that point he was actually considering TNA. He had made a lot of independent bookings. He booked a lot of shows. I think he was being sincere and there was nothing going on in terms of a return to WWE yet.

Keller: On a 1-100 scale, where are you as far as this being not a work until near the very end? Are you at 100 percent sure for knowing in your mind and your heart that there was no work involved until the end?

Hardy: Yeah, I'll say 100 percent. Right around the time when they aired his deal on the TitanTron, I think that's when it was all starting to kick in.

Keller: I'm with you on that, too. You said things along the way and some people might think you were saying it was a work way back. But when you said you heard the stories changed every day or there were things he said that kind of made you wonder, what do you mean by that? Are you talking about how he would say he hated Amy one day, then be talking to her again the next day?

Hardy: Yeah, it was exactly like high school or even elementary school type behavior. Totally, to where I didn't get hot or call him out on it. I just let it be and tried to worry about myself a little bit.

Keller: He was talking to Amy on the phone during breaks in the filming of the DVD?

Hardy: Yeah, it was pretty damn aggravating, especially when he speaks so strong. On this day, f--- her. I watched his single interview on the Ultimate Insiders DVD and there are so many things about it that I want to watch it with him. It could have been titled, "The Contradiction."

Keller: What aspect most makes you think the title should be changed to represent that?

Hardy: It's small little things, mainly anything that's discussing me as far as saying, "He does a big trick here and a big trick there." Just the way he would describe the way I put together matches and how he was always, "I couldn't do it without him." It was little itty bitty things that aren't on such a serious level. I've always joked with him about getting the personal side and business side intertwined.

Keller: So you thought there were times he complimented you but then other times he kind of belittled your contributions?

Hardy: Yeah. But I don't remember very many compliments, as far as heavy-duty compliments. It just seemed like, I don't know, when I was mentioned, I almost sensed him going into defense mode as far as, "God, I'm tired of hearing about Jeff."

Keller: I got a sense of Matt during that interview, and you obviously have a sense of him from being his brother, that he's a leader. He's Type-A. He wants control. Then he gets to WWE and the "little brother" is more athletic, more charismatic, gets more cheers, gets more attention, and I think at some point, in order to fulfill who he is, takes over publicly as leader of the team. Because behind the scenes, he was the one who was more vocal, more into the planning of the match, and working with the opponents. You were more quiet and just listened and then did your thing in the ring. I think he wanted to go public with that. He wanted to make it clear he's not a sidekick, not the Robert Gibson to your Ricky Morton. He wanted to establish that. I think he chose that DVD interview not as an insult to you, but to try to balance out public perception that you were 90 percent of the reason the Hardys were successful. So my interpretation from conducting the interview and watching it afterward wasn't that he was trying to disrespect you as much as defensive is the word because he went through a long stretch of time feeling underappreciated because he contributed in a very major way, it just wasn't as flashy. Does that make sense?

Hardy: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. That was very well put. As far as the public perception goes, that's smart, very smart, like Magnavox. (laughs)

Keller: So my take on it is I wouldn't take it really personally, but it doesn't mean that you might not roll your eyes and say, "Thanks, brother."

Hardy: Matt, he stopped by here one day as far as when he first brought that up (doing the DVD interview) and I pretty much right away thought, oh goodness flying all the way to California. I was reacting like it would be forever when in fact it was just a couple of days. It ended up being a good deal. He talked quite a long time. He talks a lot, man.

Keller: It was so good that he was a talker, because by the time we got to shooting his interview, I was worn out from the full day of shooting. I interviewed you two together, then you alone, and by the time it was his turn, I was beat. But I could have asked one question of Matt and walked out of the room and come back an hour and a half later and he'd still be talking. It wasn't hard to interview him no matter how tired I was. It was easy because that's the moment he was waiting for and he can talk. Even during the dual interview, it was clear he had more to say.

This full interview which lasted two-and-a-half hours is available for PWTorch VIP members in the Torch Talk Library. To go VIP, click here. We'd love to add you as a subscriber!

You can also buy or rent "The Ultimate Insiders" DVD set hosted by Wade Keller where he interviewed Matt and Jeff Hardy for several hours on camera about their careers, their lives, and Matt's relationship with Lita. Just search Amazon or Netflix for availability as the DVD is out of print otherwise.

[Jeff & Matt Hardy photo credit Wade Keller (c) PWTorch]

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